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Sawadee ka Khun Kaewmala,
I read a few of your posts and enjoy reading them.
Your explanation about Thai terms, such as [arn-mai-awk], [arn-mai-dai], etc, are very clear.
It’s nice to have a native Thai, who has a deep understanding about Thai language and culture, answering questions that foreigners have about Thai culture and things.
Thanks to be here and I wish you the best!
Hi Kaewmala,
Thanks for this insight into Thai women. Yours is the most informative site I have encountered. This blog hasn’t answered all my questions but it has put many things into perspective.
Thanks for the effort
Ciao
Thanks Thailand Breeze and Peter for your comments.
Peter, I cannot and will not pretend to have any ready answers for anyone. All I can offer is a perspective of one Thai woman who also tries to understand the same things as most of my readers. If a reader thinks my perspective is worthwhile, then I’m already happy.
Dear Kaewmala
Your ‘chart’ was posted by a friend of mine on facebook and created a lot of buzz and comments. Me and other girls at first thought it was a ‘satire’ and found it pretty offensive…the men defended it as some ‘harmless fun’…
Can I ask you whether you meant this in a satirical way? Or do you really believe it’s fair to categorize the women of your country in a sort of ‘dog-breed’ way by social class in order for the average dirty ‘farang’ to have a dummies-chart to pick from?
I cannot imagine that an intellectual woman like you meant this… but with my maybe ‘ignorant western’ mindset this is what I see…
Please could you clarify your scope and intentions to me in posting this article…
Thank you
Alessandra, London
Hi Alessandra,
I sort of expected that sooner or later a question like yours would arrive at my door.
Your and your girlfriends’ reaction is understandable, especially if the chart was posted alone (without the article that came with it or any context from which it arose – http://www.thaisextalk.com/looking-for-love.htm).
I had some qualms about that chart but decided to post it anyway – it was done in a tongue-in-cheek way but not without some seriousness. From an outsider perspective, classifying women according to class, education and status might seem distasteful – though “dog breeds” or not is a matter of perspective. I certainly did not think of dogs when I was designing the chart. No do I think of them now, now that you’ve mentioned the comparison.
The chart was designed, not for foreign women, but for foreign men who have little idea of the diversity of Thai women. It is intended to remind them that the (presumed) “one” female type that is Thai woman/women they had in mind is actually not singular but plural.
Surely, many wise foreign men would have no need of the chart, but from what I’ve seen even many of the intelligent ones, when they come to Thailand, seem to have forgot their brains at home.
I have talked to foreign men on this topic for many years – not so successfully at first – but I have learned over the years that if you want someone to listen to you, you speak their language.
Perhaps if you’d read more on my website and my blog here, you might gain better understanding, esp. these articles: http://thaiwomantalks.com/category/ask-kaewmala/love-relationship/
And thanks for your question.
Thanks for your promt reply Kaewmala – I will pass it on to the friends we were discussing this with – and I will read the other posts you mention to understand the context better.
Best,
Alessandra
I have a better understanding of Thai society with that chart. I think is also answers some of the misunderstandings that are cultural. In the US we Hide our class prejudges as it is not socially acceptable (nor wise) to openly voice them.
The question is what discussion would a man have with an educated Thai woman about sex?
What is the role of the “little wife” in Thai society?
Is there a male that writes about the topics you write about?
Not that I know of.
I bought “Sex Talk” when it first appeared on the shelves of Chiang Mai’s Gecko bookshop, and have only just come across this post. Oh boy, do I wish you’d written the book earlier, and published this follow-up article shortly afterwards! It may be ‘tongue-in-cheek’, but several years on, I can testify to your insights as being spot on in so many areas. I was on the ‘rebound’ after my wife’s premature death and despite having the opportunity for a relationship with one of your ‘group 4s’, ended up in the superficially sensual clutches of the bar girl scene. One ‘unexpected’ child later, and despite serious misgivings – not about fidelity but about my partner’s psychological stability – I find myself wondering how to put an end to a relationship that is, in the cold light of day, an unmitigated disaster.
I do know of some relationships with bar girls that have worked pretty well all things considered, but as you suggest, these are rare gems.
The psychology of the bar girl is a real obstacle to a successful relationship. Thai society, the family, will always look down on those involved, and the girl is conscious of this, or at best the doubt and lack of self-respect is at work somewhere in her subconscious. This, in my experience, means that the ‘easy’ option for the girl, when problems emerge, is self-blame, self-disgust, and running away; because in her mind she is not worthy of a successful married life anyway.
Coupled with this is another factor, which at first might seem to be somewhat conflicting… i.e. a slightly ‘aggressive’ element to the psychological make-up of those who enter the profession in the first place. There’s no denying that there is often alternative work available, even if it’s menial and low-paid. So what type of girl in the poorer echelons of Thai society says “to hell with it, I don’t care what people think, I deserve better and will do whatever it takes – even sell my body”? Is there a wilful type with a stubborn streak, independent nature, who is more likely to find themselves working the bars? Leading to a more fragile psychology with the above two elements in constant conflict, perhaps?
I think possibly so. I’m not trying to pigeon-hole every bar girl as reflecting my experience, but both in my relationship and in a number of others I’m familiar with, I have sensed both of the above, to a greater or lesser degree.
I now find myself, at an age when my thoughts should have been turning towards a relaxing retirement in a few years’ time, instead looking after a very young child while my wife is back in her home town, undergoing treatment for manic depression, or bipolar syndrome as it is commonly called these days. Good shrinks are not easy to find in Thailand, and after three months (I’m in Europe temporarily), I’m starting to realise, with the added perspective of distance, that the combined treatment of targeted drugs and therapy doesn’t seem to be working. So my advice to all expats, green or otherwise, going to or already in Thailand, is look at the odds. They are strongly against you finding a lasting relationship with a Thai bar girl, if that is what you are hoping for. Kaewmala’s chart may be tongue-in-cheek, but combined with her book and other articles, it is telling you what you perhaps don’t want to hear. You’ll need a lot of luck, patience, flexibility and empathic perception for it to have the slightest chance of working. Not to mention a very solid degree of financial stability!
Dear Robert,
Thank you for sharing your first-hand experience. I am sorry to hear your predicament. We all make mistakes, some more difficult than others.
I wish you the needed strength, patience and compassion in facing your difficulties. Yes, and also luck
, in finding a satisfactory resolution. I believe that sometimes bad and painful things can lead to beautiful things, among them the emotional maturity and wisdom that will help guide us towards a better, happier path in future.
Best wishes,