Monthly Archives: March 2010

From “Wet Bottom” to Masculine Guile

It all started with a wet bottom. Really. But it’s not the kind of wet bottom you might be thinking of. The wet bottom I’m referring to is the “wet bottom” of Thai stairs. Like this. Well, this one is not wet, but you get the idea.

bottom of Thai stairs

bottom of staircase เชิงบันได ตีนกระได

Since my recent dealing with the expression หัวกระไดไม่แห้ง /hǔua krà-dai mâi hÊEng/ the translation of which I mangled by confusing the top with the bottom of stairs (which I corrected and explained in an earlier post), I’ve learned more about Thai stairs—commonly known as บันได /ban-dai/ in Thai, or กระได /krà-dai /, the older of the two terms.

I had no idea that a staircase could be so complicated. I thought stairs were just a thing you step on repeatedly everyday. I certainly have gained a new respect for stairs, and take them for granted no more.

Do you realize that Thai staircases have a mother แม่กระได, children ลูกกระได, head หัวกระได, foot ตีนกระได, and steps ขั้นกระได in between? The eminent Thai language expert Professor Kanjana Nakskul กาญจนา นาคสกุล explains the whole anatomy of the Thai stairs with all their endearing names here.

Now back to the “bottom” of the stairs. I mentioned before that the bottom of stairs is called เชิงกระได /chooeng krà-dai/ or เชิงบันได /chooeng ban-dai/. Do you all know what the word เชิง /chooeng/ means? It means “foot” or “base” of something.

A Thai linguist ภาษิต จิตรภาษา Phasit Jitrphasa, who writes columns on etymology of Thai words, said that the word เชิง /chooeng/ had its origin in Chinese; /chooeng/ means ตีน /tiin/ in Chinese and that’s why the word was borrowed as a synonym for foot of stairs which was originally called ตีนกระได /tiin krà-dai/ in Thai. I don’t know Chinese, so anyone who does can educate me whether Khun Phasit’s theory has any validity.

(For those just starting to learn Thai, note that the word ตีน /tiin/ is an authentic, old Thai word for “foot” but is now considered impolite. So, unless you want to make a fool of yourself, don’t use it in polite society to refer to your own feet; use the polite term เท้า /táaw/ instead – but not บาทา /baa-thaa/, which is a royal term, unless you have a good command of Thai to play with the word… I know, even calling a foot can be a dicey affair when you speak Thai.)

Back again to เชิง /chooeng/. If you look around, you can see the word embedded in many things (at least I do – like a child learning something new, “They are ev-ery-where …”) – in things that have a foot, a base, a bottom, or a rim, like:

เชิงสะพาน /chooeng sà-phaan/ = foot/bottom of a bridge

เชิงเขา /chooeng khǎw/ = foothill, foot of a mountain

เชิงกำแพง /chooeng kam-phEEng/ = base of a wall

เชิงเทียน /chooeng thiian/ = candle stick, candle holder

ชิงผ้าซิ่น /chooeng phâa-sîn/ = bottom rim of a lady’s sarong

เชิงชาย /chooeng chaay/ = eave, the overhanging lower edge of a roof

eave

เชิงชาย = eave in a traditional Thai house structure

To tell the truth, I’ve heard of the word เชิงชาย /chooeng chaay/ before but never, ever thought of a part of a house. (Who pays attention to that kind of thing except architects and builders, right?) I bet that most have heard of the word in the sense of “manliness,” “manly pride,” like อย่าประมาทเชิงชาย /yàa prà-màat chooeng chaay / “Don’t belittle a man’s manliness.”

Yep. Men can be very particular about such things, you know.  As women well know, they guard their manliness very jealously.

manly man

Don’t belittle this man’s เชิงชาย /chooeng chaay/

manly man2

Or this man's

manly caveman

historical evidence: evolutionary manliness genes

But we women should be sympathetic; they can’t help it, it’s in their genes. Look –>

But seriously, despite the graphic evidence to the contrary, manliness is not just about muscles and the physical. As mentioned, เชิงชาย /chooeng chaay/ also includes a sense of  (male) dignity and pride.

The word เชิง /chooeng/ in เชิงชาย /chooeng chaay/ also has another layer of meaning: “manner, style, personality, guile.” In this sense, the word เชิง /chooeng/ is the same as the word ชั้นเชิง /chán chooeng/ which means, “tact, stratagem, guile, finesse.”

So, there you have it:

เชิงชาย /chooeng chaay/  = “manliness,” “masculine guile,” or “masculine finesse.”

Some of you might be wondering about any positive or negative connotation of the word. Mostly I think it’s neutral to positive. Manliness is something to be proud of and to protect (a little too jealously in some cases in a macho culture). But if the focus is on the trickery (like a “player” is said to be real “smooth” and have great “finesse” with the ladies), then it can be negative.

I was going to also talk about feminine guile, but the article is already too long.  So, I’ll save that for another day.

Lastly, not wanting to give an impression that I think poorly of manly men, I’ll leave you with some pictures just to show that I appreciate (and in fact much prefer) manly men, but to be honest not all masculinity is equal.  :-) See for yourself …

gerard butler in 300

some more manly than others

gerard butler profile

simply manly beautiful

gerard and his man bag
Manly man + man bag | Contrary to popular male opinion, real men who are secure about their “manliness” ain’t afraid of no bags! Go Gerard!
construction worker

manly in female fantasy

Will someone please fetch me a fan!

Three Days of Abandonment, the Lady’s Heart Changes – Or the Man’s?

สามวันจากนารีเป็นอื่น

/sǎam wan jàak naa-rii pen ùuen/

That’s a common saying, which literally says: “Leave a woman for three days, the heart changes.” It comes from a verse in the style of โคลงสี่สุภาพ /khloong sìi sù-phâap/ which is way too complicated for me to explain, not so much into poetry as I am. (Anyone interested can read more about it here — it’s in Thai though.)

I’ve abandoned my blog for five days, because I’ve been slogging over a major report and when I had a break I was hanging out at the Thai Language forum and the Ladies forum on Thaivisa.com — talking about such things and others (and stressing out over the political situation). And the verse which is the source of the saying mentioned also has something to say about leaving learning (and writing) for five days. Here goes (again with my clumsy translation, much wanting poetic flair, and please forgive my flouting of the composition rules in the translation):

๏เจ็ดวันเว้นดีดซ้อม ……….ดนตรี
Pause practice, seven days …….. of music

อักขระห้าวันหนี ……………..เนิ่นช้า
Leave letters, five days makes learnin’ ……… sluggish surely

สามวันจากนารี ………………เป็นอื่น
Depart a woman, three days, the heart ………… displaces

วันหนึ่งเว้นล้างหน้า …………อับเศร้าศรีหมอง
Miss face washing just one day ….…….. one looks sadly dull.

Source: โคลงโลกนิติ /khoong lôok-kà-nít/ composed by Prince Dejadisorn (สมเด็จพระเจ้าบรมวงศ์เธอ กรมพระยาเดชาดิศร).

The moral of the verse is persistence and perseverance; whatever you do, you keep at it, otherwise it goes sideways. In other words, practice makes perfect.  (This poems is taught to lower secondary students.)

Now, anyone who is familiar with Thai language might have heard this saying, from the third line of the poem.

สามวันจากนารี ………………เป็นอื่น
Depart a woman, three days, the heart ………… displaces

This line has often been used to mean that a woman changes after being left for three days by a man. But if you look at the structure of the poem, this interpretation is debatable.

On the one hand, the composer of the poem meant to teach the reader that when you do something you have to persevere, so you might interpret the meaning in this way:

If you stop practicing music for 7 days, [the music leaves you],

If you leave letters (reading and writing) for 5 days, the knowledge deserts you,

If you leave a woman for 3 days, the woman changes and deserts you too,

If you don’t wash your face just 1 day, the [unwashed] face leaves you unattractive and dull.

On the other hand, the composer also taught personal responsibility. Though the line does not say clearly who or whose heart changes or displaces, the word break pattern suggests it could be the man who changes because, we can interpret that

If you stop practicing music for 7 days, [you forget the music],

If you leave letters for 5 days, you become slow at learning,

If you leave a woman for 3 days, you change,

If you don’t wash your face just 1 day, you look sadly dull.

Thai language often omits subjects, so sometimes it can either give you a headache or a subject for an interesting debate like this. :-)

Are Thai Women Incurious Lovers?

………….UPDATE (5 March 2010)…………..

I have asked the question on the Ladies Forum at ThaiVisa.com, to get primarily women’s views, but ended up getting both men’s and women’s. Some of them are very insightful, click here if you want to check out the responses. Note that the first few comments were not representative of the quality of the discussion. (It got better, much better – promise.)

Paul has given his reaction to the discussion at the Ladies Forum thus far in the comment section of this blog entry.

…………ORIGINAL POST…………..

Are we? (Curious Thai women lovers, hold it!! Please don’t flog me! — cowering)

(Hands still blocking head) It’s not my question, girls. Really. One curious (farang) mind wants to know. His name is Paul. …

Paul wants to know why none of his several long-term and short-term Thai (ex-)girlfriends ever seemed to want to know more about him as a person. He didn’t say this, but I guess he must have felt like a serial foreign census respondent, being asked the same basic demographic questions: “where do you come from,” “have you ever been married,” “how many children do you have.”

In his own words [chopped off a bit]:

I have had two long-term relationships (two and three years each) with Thai women and several not so long. None of the women ever asked about my previous life experiences – except for information related to past marriages, children and country of origin.

I can interpret such omissions as being disinterested in me as a person or – perhaps a better explanation – a lack of curiosity about anything beyond Thailand or anything that did not have an immediate or direct influence on them. Even while in the process of asking them about their childhood, their views, their experiences, they did not reciprocate. And I don’t understand why they would not have taken advantage of the opportunity to learn more about my life in my country and the outside world in general. …

Any insight?

Chin scratching moment… (searching insight database — woozz…woozz…)

Not knowing the specific backgrounds of the different GFs you mentioned, it’s a bit hard to give any determinate answer. But with what I’ve got, here’s my take — there could be several reasons, which may not be mutually exclusive (trying to cover major possible bases :-) ).

  1. First, are you the type of person who tends to give a monologue? If so, that usually discourages people to ask questions.
  2. Have you ever invited any of them to ask about you? Like, “So now I know so much about you. Don’t you want to know more about me?” kind of invitation.
  3. Do you speak enough Thai, or did any of them speak enough English to engage in the level of discussion you expected?
  4. What level of education and cultural/social background and personality did they have?

Sorry that my answer is actually a bunch of questions, and really not much of an answer. If you answer “No” to (1) and “Yes” to (2), then  it’s probably not your personality that prevented them from wanting to know you more. We now look at (3) – language facility on both sides. If that’s still not a problem, then maybe we’re talking about lack of interest or curiosity on the women’s part. So, we’re down to (4), which is probably where at least a partial explanation lies.

Are Thai women really that disinterested in getting to know their respective foreign lovers?

… (What do you say, Thai women with or without a foreign lover? And foreign lovers of a Thai woman or man?)

I don’t know about other Thai women, but I myself am very interested in my farang hubby as a person. But then I’m only one in 30 million plus Thai women and can’t speak for each of the rest. What I can say is that curiosity is perhaps not a value much admired in Thai culture and the Thai education system doesn’t encourage asking questions much either. Then you have class, individual personality and outlook in life, etc.

It is possible that they might not have felt comfortable asking more personal questions, fearing it might be impolite. Or they might simply have been really disinterested and incurious about you, your culture, your background, etc. Engaging in such a level of discussion takes some effort.

Then, I have a question myself (you got me curious). If it wasn’t you, they were interested in knowing, what were they interested in knowing — that you could tell, that is?

That’s about all the two satangs I can muster to give right now.

Anyone with experience or viewpoint to share, please jump in.

How to say “Toy Boy” & “Toy Girl” in Thai

Finally someone asked a question! And it’s from my regular visitor Catherine. Thanks, Cat.  :-)   The question:

Some time ago, I kiddingly called a Thai friend a toy boy. His English is good but does not cover all slang, so my other friend (female) tried to explain.

[Cat’s friend offered gigolo, mistress and words along that line.]

In the west, toy boy is a playful word. But she could not come up with an equally fun Thai equivalent. …

So my question is this… does Thailand have more relaxed, fun descriptions than prostitute?

When I first got the question, a ready word did not spontaneously spring to mind and declare itself a winner. I had some idea but wasn’t so sure. (Unfortunately I’ve never had any practical experience with toy boys — which might have primed me for this question. :-)   So, I had to make do with asking a couple of Thai girlfriends.)

Ask them I did, and got more or less the same answer, which confirmed my suspicion that “toy boy” does not have a perfect equivalent in Thai, but a few approximates that come close enough – and with an interesting background to boot. Here they are:

เด็ก /dèk/ or เด็กเลี้ยง /dèk líiang/ — literally “a kid” or “a kid in one’s support”

These terms are slang, and do not connote that the “kid” concerned is a prostitute.

It all sounds very innocent and very altruistic, isn’t it? But read on.

The terms are playful like the slang “toy boy”. Despite its literal meaning, the “kid” in the Thai expression is not necessarily a young boy or young girl. Often it’s a young man or, more often, young woman — the term applies to both sexes.

In the old days there was a Thai tradition (widely practiced or not I don’t know) of raising and grooming a child since childhood to become one’s wife or husband (when the child “grew up” and became “old” enough to become one). This is a tradition called เลี้ยงต้อย /líiang tÔOy/.

The word ต้อย /tÔOy/ in the expression is an old term and means “little” or “small”, as in a little kid or a small child. Usually the child is a girl, though once in a while, I guess, that might happen to boys too. (ต้อย TÔOy is also a common Thai girl name.)

Since that kind of tradition, if practiced today, would likely lead one to prison, it is no longer (widely) practiced (there might be some stragglers out there). First, the laws prohibiting this type of thing would make it complicated and too risky a venture. Plus, people these days are too impatient to wait years and years for a future wife or husband to grow up. So เด็กเลี้ยง(ต้อย) /dèk líiang (tÔOy)/ these days aren’t exactly raised since childhood either – the future lover (masquerading as a patron) would look for a young thing who’s presumably old enough to be legally safe. And marriage would not be a prerequisite.

The few Thai girlfriends I asked first gave me the word เลี้ยงต้อย /líiang tÔOy/ when I asked them the question of how to say “toy boy” in Thai. But that’s not the word to call a toy boy (or toy girl), but rather a way to describe or tease someone for having a toy boy, or toy girl.

One of my girlfriends fingered มาช่า วัฒนพานิช the famous Thai celebrity who has a much younger (& sizzling hot!) boyfriend (whom Westerners might call her toy boy) as an example of someone who เลี้ยงต้อย /líiang tÔOy/ in the modern sense. (I know it’s hard to say who’s the ‘kid’ from the look of them in the picture. Believe it or not, the boyfriend is closer in age to the lady’s son.)

มาช่า วัฒนพานิช & กฤษณ์

มาช่า วัฒนพานิช กับแฟนหนุ่ม กฤษณ์ Macha Wattanapanich & Boyfriend Krit - A cougar & a toy boy?

Still, even in this modern usage, when compared to the Western counterpart, I think the Thai version has a stronger connotation of patronage in the relationship. That is, a เด็ก /dèk/ or เด็กเลี้ยง /dèk líiang/ is often, though not always, financially supported by his or her patron-cum-lover: a condo, a car, brand name products, etc. are common gifts. It’s also not uncommon for the patron-cum-lover to pay for his or her dèk’s education as well.

(If you happen to read this, Macha, I’m not suggesting that you’re supporting your hunky sweetheart.  With your beauty and youthful looks, the last thing a man  — young or old — would think of in your company is your money.)

To sum it up, the expression เลี้ยงต้อย /líiang tÔOy/ is now commonly used with cases where a man or a woman has a much younger lover. But the toy boy (and often toy girl) is called เด็ก /dèk/, เด็กเลี้ยง /dèk líiang/ or less often เด็กเลี้ยงต้อย /dèk líiang tÔOy/ of the cougar, sugar daddy or sugar mommy. 

Conceivably English-speaking Thais who know the English slang might just use the English version. One friend also told me that when the English term “toy boy” is used among Thais, it is often used among gay men and hence has a homosexual connotation. But I know nothing about this last remark.

Any comments and further erudition would be appreciated.

…………UPDATE …………

“Toy boy” or “boy toy” in English? In other words, is it “a boy who is a toy” or “a toy who is a boy”? Native speakers, please enlighten!

From Urban Dictionary:

Toy boy = Female cradle-robbing. The much younger male partner to an older or middle-aged woman.

Boy toy = A male used specifically by females for pleasure and fun when their husband or boy friend is not giving them enough attention or in case of break up or divorce.

And what’s the best Thai slang for it?

Is it เด็กเลี้ยง /dèk líiang/?

Someone suggested ของเล่น /khǑOng lên/ “plaything”, and another word just popped up in my head a little while ago ผู้ชายป้ายเหลือง / /pÔO-chaay pâay-lǔeaang/ “yellow-plate man” or “yellow-light man”? (“yellow”  as in for “temporary parking”).

Please share your thoughts.